Hello everyone. First I want to apologize for my extended absence. At the end of December I was hit hard financially. I lost my phone and car insurance. To make matters worse the new college term was starting. In light of all things, I was faced with a choice. Either stop college to limit the output of money or continue college and sell off some Magic cards to increase the amount of available funds I had to work with. While I do love magic, quitting college was not an option for me. So I ended up selling a good portion of my Standard and Modern cards. Thankfully there is always a light at the end of the tunnel. While it took me a few months, it seems I have been able to catch back up on my bills and now am able to play magic once more. With any luck, these extended leaves of absence will now cease. Now on to today's topic.
Today I will be looking at standard. As of right now, aggro decks are all the rage. There are some viable control options, but they are really few and far between. Today, I will be looking at my take on Ben Stark's Esper control list he played in the Pro Tour. To begin with we must first look at his list.
Creatures- 9
4 {Augur of Bolas}
3 {Restoration Angel}
2 {Snapcaster Mage}
Instants and Sorceries- 24
4 {Azorious Charm}
4 {Think Twice}
4 {Sphinx's Revelation}
4 {Supreme Verdict}
2 {Planar Cleansing}
2 {Devour Flesh}
2 {Dissipate}
1 {Ultimate Price}
1 {Terminus}
Lands- 27
4 {Hallowed Fountain}
4 {Glacial Fortress}
4 {Nephalia Drownyard}
3 {Isolated Chapel}
3 {Godless Shrine}
3 {Drowned Catacomb}
3 {Watery Grave}
2 {Island}
1 {Plains}
In this discussion I will not be looking at his sideboard since I believe that it is up to an individual's meta to decide what cards to include. The first thing I would like to look at is the engine for this deck. Control decks depend on their draw engine to generate the answers needed to solve the problem at hand. The main engine of this deck consist of the 4 Think Twice, 4 Azorious Charm, and 4 Sphinx's Revelation. I really like the idea of chaining these cards together to create an engine that pushes through some advantage over the game. One could argue the Restoration Angel and Augur of Bolas are part of this to, but I have my own feelings on that I will address a little later. The core of the deck is the above mentioned 12 cards that generate all the advantage.
Next we will look at the removal suite. Stark plays 7 wraths in the main deck in addition to 3 pieces of spot removal. I also really like the idea of this package, but I have found some issues with the Ultimate Price which is more often a dead card than not. Snapcasters can help further increase the removal if needed, allowing the control player to have a firm grasp over the game.
The win condition is pretty clear. The main way to win with this deck is Nephalia Drownyard. I believe I read somewhere that stark also claimed snagging a few games with Snapcasters/Angels/Augurs turning sideways. But those wins are few and far between. There were also some {Jace, Memory Adept} in the sideboard that were sided in to help with the Drownyard plan in game 2.
Overall I think this deck is very solid and I congratulate him for going so far in the Pro Tour with it. The only card in this deck I can't really besides Ultimate Price is the Restoration Angel. I realize the synergy with Snapcaster and Augur, but I have encountered a few issues with this card. To begin with, it is far less useful if you have neither of the blue 2 drops in play. Adding to this, Angel just does not feel that great in control in my opinion. I think it has its place in control decks, but this particular Esper deck is not the true home for this card. My biggest issue with the card is its mana cost. 4 mana is just too slow against the aggro decks these days. With aggro having the ability to chain {Burning Tree Emissary} and having huge {Champion of the Parish} early, the pressure is just too great for this card to really see its potential. Here is my take on his list.
Creatures- 5
3 {Augur of Bolas}
2 {Snapcaster Mage}
Instants and Sorceries- 27
4 {Sphinx's Revelation}
4 {Think Twice}
4 {Supreme Verdict}
4 {Lingering Souls}
3 {Syncopate}
2 {Planar Cleansing}
2 {Devour Flesh}
2 {Dissipate}
2 {Azorious Charm}
Planeswalkers- 1
1 {Jace, Memory Adept}
Lands- 27
4 {Nephalia Drownyard}
4 {Hallowed Fountain}
4 {Glacial Fortress}
4 {Drowned Catacomb}
3 {Watery Grave}
3 {Godless Shrine}
1 {Isolated Chapel}
2 {Island}
1 {Swamp}
1 {Plains}
My version of this list is more of a streamlined control list. I keep most of the draw engine package aside from 2 Azorious Charm since I found that card to be the weakest link at times. But the main difference between Stark's list and my own is the absence of Resotration Angel and the inclusion of Lingering Souls. I like Souls way more for many reasons. To begin with, it comes down on turn 3 which is one turn quicker than the Angel does. This is relevant against the quick aggro decks that are dominating standard at the moment. Another thing I like about it is that it creates two dudes instead of just one. Of course you can flash in Angel and kill a creature in combat. But sometimes, you need to chump creatures instead of kill them. With Souls, you get the option to do just that. It comes down on turn 3. When your opponent swings, you can either chump both creatures and take no damage, or double block one to get it off of the table if they are running slow. The flashback is just gravy since at the point you could play Restoration Angel once, you could also instead have 4 1/1 flyers that either trade or block 4 separate attacks. In my opinion, Souls lets you stall longer and buys you much needed time to find your wrath effects. Another plus to souls is the control matchup. If the mirror match begins to mill you out, they only help you by milling Souls. It can actually put them on a clock where they need to find an answer. Most game 2s the wraths are sided out, so answering so many tokens without tokens of their own turns out to be a big issue barring the Esper Planeswalker version of this deck that plays Souls and Sorin.
Another key difference in my list is the 3 Syncopates. These help the control matchup game one and prevent the resolution of both {Thragtusk} and {Thundermaw Hellkite}. I do not like the idea of letting Thragtusk resolve then wiping the board while a 3/3 stays behind. Stark's list did run 2 Dissipate, but I felt it was just not enough. Also, Syncopate is really powerful if you are on the turn one play. Since you get the first land drop, you will almost always have one more mana than the opponent. 27 lands makes it very unlikely for you to miss a land drop, and this is key with the synergy you get with Syncopate.
The win condition is pretty much the same with my list. Nephalia Drownyard pulls a lot of weight on its own. I have won a few games off of the back of Lingering Souls, but it does not happen often. Jace is an interesting inclusion in the main. There are 2 main reasons why I went with this. To begin with, it helps the main milling plan for our win condition. The second is it helps make up for the missing 2 Azorious Charm in my list since Jace can act as a draw engine himself. The fact that he is also good against the control matchup is just gravy and makes it hard for control to beat me game one.
So far this list had proven well in my testing. I have taken down a number of Burning Tree Emmisary style Naya decks and a few other control decks in the process. Some would argue against 4 Drownyard and try and advocate 1 {Ghost Quarter} over 1 Drownyard, but I really do not think it is necessary. I have yet to run into a problem with other lands since I tend to be able to deal with most creatures that enter play within a turn or two. {Cavern of Souls} may be the best argument against me, but I only run 5 counters and countering creatures is generally not in the gameplan unless I have no form of removal anywhere in site (aside from Thragtusk and Thundermaw. Possibly {Prime Speaker, Zeganna} depending on the board state). I really encourage all of you to try this deck if you like more of a traditional permission style control. I plan to do some more testing around this Friday and will try and update my results later this weekend. Thankfully, the huge storm I have been dealing with is beginning to pass. Death Gaara's articles are back and better than every baby! Always remember, keep it real and have fun!
DG
Quality stuff. All wannabe Sages: if you're as good as this, you're in ;)
WELCOME BACK! And good article of course.
Welcome back DG. I was worried we would never hear from you again. Glad to hear everything is doing well.
As usual, I disagree with your stance on {Azorius Charm}. It isn't only good for drawing cards. Putting a creature on top of their library, so you know which card they're drawing next turn. It also helps so you can {Nephalia Drownyard} it away. It's a really great stabilizer card - it avoids all death triggers, indestructible and super beefed up attacks. The lifelink is less relevant for sure. Because of those modes, I'd likely take 4-of instead of {Think Twice}
But another great essay, glad to have you back.
Quote from: Dudecore on March 27, 2013, 08:12:40 AM
Welcome back DG. I was worried we would never hear from you again. Glad to hear everything is doing well.
As usual, I disagree with your stance on {Azorius Charm}. It isn't only good for drawing cards. Putting a creature on top of their library, so you know which card they're drawing next turn. It also helps so you can {Nephalia Drownyard} it away. It's a really great stabilizer card - it avoids all death triggers, indestructible and super beefed up attacks. The lifelink is less relevant for sure. Because of those modes, I'd likely take 4-of instead of {Think Twice}
But another great essay, glad to have you back.
I agree to disagree with you. I realize the effectiveness of that mode. For me it is just the least used mode next to lifelink. I think it is okay to fall down to two because of Snapcaster. Also, using Lingering Souls really lets you prolong the game longer than Azorius Charm. Its a great card don't get me wrong. But I do not think it is needed as a four of. My build plays more counterspells in place of Charm. These not only improves the control matchup, but stops the creature from resolving all together. This is important whenever we are dealing with Thragtusk or the new flavor of the week Prime Speaker Zegana. The biggest issue with those two creatures is if either resolve, the opponent gets value. Azorius Charm is terrible against Thragtusk giving your opponent a free beast while you traded 1 for 1. Not to mention if you cannot stop Thragtusk next turn the issue starts all over again. As I am sure you know control demands the pilot make use of spells that increase his or her card advantage ie. 2 for 1's. In my testing with a list similar to Stark's (it played 4 Charms) I found I drew the card way to excessively. And normally when I did draw it, it just ended up being cycled for another card. In almost every scenario I drew the extra Charms, they would almost always be better for the situation I was in if they were counterspells. It is simple really. Why bother playing a card to find an answer when I can just have an answer in it's place. Although this last point is a minor one it is still relevant. But On the games when you are starved for white (few and far between, but it does happen) Syncopate is just better at providing an answer and not sitting dead in your hand. Everybody is different, and my style of control is more permission and land go style from the days of old. I just felt the deck needed more of a traditional control package to suit my playstyle. That is what makes this game so great after all. There can be hundreds of variations off of the same idea. If you feel like giving me the benefit of the doubt you could try dropping to two in a more permission style deck and see how it plays out for you. Even at two I still seem to see that card very frequently but it never turns out to be useless or unplayable when in normally turns up.
I could try it. I don't like {Syncopate}, I prefer {Negate} or {Essence Scatter} personally. {Syncopate} is good for stopping early {Farseek} and such.
Not finding {W} early doesn't ruin the cards value as far as I'm concerned, the same could be said about any card in their deck, and I'm planning on playing long enough for it not to be an issue. {Thragtusk} also represents the only time that mode doesn't work profitably, the rest of the time it does, and does well. But what does really stop {Thragtusk} besides counter magic? You're going to 2 for 1 with him 90% of the time.
Quote from: Dudecore on March 27, 2013, 12:10:20 PM
I could try it. I don't like {Syncopate}, I prefer {Negate} or {Essence Scatter} personally. {Syncopate} is good for stopping early {Farseek} and such.
Not finding {W} early doesn't ruin the cards value as far as I'm concerned, the same could be said about any card in their deck, and I'm planning on playing long enough for it not to be an issue. {Thragtusk} also represents the only time that mode doesn't work profitably, the rest of the time it does, and does well. But what does really stop {Thragtusk} besides counter magic? You're going to 2 for 1 with him 90% of the time.
I disagree on the argument with Syncopate. Essence Scatter and Negate are too reliant on a given situation. As I stated previously, Syncopate is almost never dead and is a real powerhouse when you go first. I could think of a few other creatures that Azorius Charm is bad against. Allow me to list them.
{Swagtusk} (Just rolling in all that swag lol).
{Restoration Angel} (Give the opponent more value? Sure!)
{Hellrider} (It has haste, so it swings the turn it comes down anyways)
{Huntmaster of the Fells} (Because players need more value off of this guy right?)
Anything that has already used an undying ability (More value FTW)
{Flinthoof Boar} (Again, normally has haste so little point in just returning it)
{Burning Tree Shaman} (The opponent totally needs more free mana)
{Snapcaster Mage} (Hey it could happen lol)
You cannot reliably use the Drownyard plan either to mill these cards out. To begin with, you are trying to accumulate two cards to make something work. That in itself is already not consistent. A lot of these threats also come down before you have 6 mana (2 mana for charm, 3 mana for drownyard, and the drownyard itself). When these threats do come down, most of the time the damage is done. It was once said that using one card to make another card playable is a bad way to build your deck. Charm is an exception since it has different modes. But the principles remain the same. If somebody is trying to use Charm and then Drownyard, then I feel they are doing it wrong. I realize the color argument was a bit of a stretch, but this deck is more likely to get {W} or {B} screwed than it is {U} screwed. The wait it out argument just does not fly with me. Naya Blitz decks and other aggro powerhouses will not let you wait it out. They move quickly, and you must respond quickly and efficiently. I have no doubt in your ability to play control. Based on your previous posts that I have seen and the very posts in this thread, it is apparent you are a strong control player. However, this is just a version of control that fits my Draw Go permission play style. Charm is great. But it does not provide CA like Think Twice or Revelation and it does not answer threats as universally as a counterspell does in my opinion. I like it the least in the draw engine package. That is why I decided to cut it. Like I stated earlier, I agree to disagree. I originally tried 4 Charms in the first draft version of my list and it was often subpar. I firmly believe people should play what works for them. I have tried playing 4 and I now play 2. So I have been on both sides of this argument and know what works for me. I encourage you to try going to two if you like permission style control. If you find it does not work, then simply put them back in their original place. Until you try 4 Revelation, 4 Think Twice, and 2 Charm as a package in a permission Esper list (assuming you play a permission version of this deck), then you will never know which works better for you ;)
I'd been missing your essays DG. Your insights truly have improved my understanding of the game. And your articles are well articulated/composed to boot. Good work.
Quote from: Potticus on March 28, 2013, 10:21:46 AM
I also disagree with charm. For so many reasons. All those creatures you listed with haste don't bother me. I play 2 blind obedience, if one is out and then say a hellrider comes down it comes in tapped. Next turn when it attacks I top deck it and charm obedience synergy has bought me 4 turns.
I also run 2 obzedat and only 3 sphinx's revelations. This has worked awesomely for me. Even more importantly if I have an extra azorius charm and I don't need it's other two modes I swing with obzedat and lifelink mode making Him give me 7 life this turn. I've also returned my attacking snap caster Mage with one to my hand then played him next turn targeting another card. The charm has more value than you credit it for. I honestly prefer it over think twice early game and late game.
I agree on resto angel I'm not a fan at all. I don't think she's the right card, but she does give a good answer to flying 2/2 or 3/3's.
I sense a common theme of people disagreeing with my choices on Charm. I specifically stated that I feel it works best in a "permission" style control deck. Feel free to share you list if you would like, but I cannot say how well two would work if I have nothing to go off of. I gave Charm plenty of credit. But with my permission styled list, I felt it was the weakest link and chose to cut those, Angels, and Ultimate Price. If you take care to notice, you will see that I do not run Blind Obedience. Nor do I run Obzedat. I am okay with people disagreeing with me, but if you are going to, then it needs to be on a reasonable ground. Those of you advocating for Charms as far as I know are not playing a more streamlined control list. It is leaning more towards the newer control decks. In my version of this deck, I feel 4 Charm is subpar. It does not generate enough advantage for me, nor does it deal with threats in a consistent manor, and the lifelink clause is useless in my deck since the strongest creature is Snapcaster. I am glad Charm has found a home in the new style control decks. But in an old style like mine which would rather just counter something, it is subpar. I tested this card for a long time because I wanted to play 4. Yet each time I saw it, it just ended up getting cycled into a land or some other spell I could not use.
EDIT: As far as Angel is concerned, why do people run her? I tried it and found it was too slow. Does anybody else have better results with this card? I still don't care for it, but would like to hear other opinions on it. People keep running it, so there must be something to it.
Great to have you back, not only on imtg but also in the global community of magic.
And, like always, fantastic article. Absolutely wonderful insight on the deck.
Thanks for returning! And hopefully your finances remain in your favor so you can continue to grace the imtg community with your presence :P
Hi Death!!! Great article!!
Question, does all that colorless from the drownyards affect you at all?
I never have an issue with colorless .force. when using drownyards.
Here is an update. So the guys at the shop needed one more guy for FNM (they only had 7). I actually did not want to be there because I did not feel well (came down with a bad case of laryngitis) but I decided to stay just so everybody else could play. I played against 3 different decks in FNM with the above list and these were my results.
1) 5 color control
This was a pretty easy .library. for me to roll over. Just counter the relevant stuff like Bolas and let the .force. ramp resolve unless you know it will .force. screw them. SB plans were to cut the Supreme Verdict and sideboard in {Duress} and more countermagic. Duress makes this matchup an easy one. I put the player off of a turn 4 and turn 5 play with Duress. He tries to cast Garruk on turn 6, but it ends up eating a counterspell. I win quickly after using Lingering Souls to create a much stronger boardstate than my opponent.
1-0
2) 4 Color Control
This is easily one of the best players at our shop. He consistently tops at FNM and always does well at the GPs and PTQs we attend. This was a very lengthy and hard match for both of us. Game 1 was pretty simple. I had no idea what he was playing, but some early Lingering Souls get in some damage. We go back and forth with .ground. drops, he {Farseek}s once. He attempts to resolve a Thragtusk which I end up countering. At this point I still do not know what he is playing, so I flashback the second set of souls I cast for a total of 6 tokens in play. On his next turn he drops a Thundermaw and swings totally blowing me out. My turn comes and I wrath the board and pass. At this point I abandon the damage plan since Thragtusks are beginning to resolve. After a long fought game 1, I was able to mill him out off of the back of 2-3 Drownyards and some Wraths to keep the board stable. Sideboarding against this .library. was also really hard. I could take out wraths for more countermagic and Duress, but he was also playing plenty of creatures I needed to answer (Restoration Angel, Thragtusk, Snapcaster, Augur of Bolas, Thundermaw, etc.). I decide to thumb through my sideboard a few times and rearrange the top few cards between my sideboard and my .library. to give the illusion I am sideboarding, but ultimately I choose not to because I do not know his plans. Game 2 was also a long uphill battle. We go back and for with Augurs, Sphinx's revelations, and counters. He is able to stick a Jace and starts blasting me for 10 each turn. With only 16 cards in my .library. left, I had to peel the one Planar Cleansing I had left. My turn comes and I rip just that off the top. I had abandoned the mill plan earlier in favor of a 4 Lingering Souls tokens driving it home for me (He only had 13 life). I swing at him and not the Jace who only had 4 counters. He takes the damage. I proceed to try and wrath, but it is met with a counter. What I should have done was swing at the Jace and pressured out an Azorious Charm. That way he would not have .force. for the wrath, but in either way I do not believe I could have come back anyways. Now that I was able to see more of a game plan against me, I sideboard out some wraths (not all) for some {Negate} and a {Psychic Spiral}. Game 3 was one of the best games I have played in the 10 years I have been playing this game. We begin as usual with each side playing Augurs, Revelations, and cycling Charms.He resolves a Thragtusk. My next turn I cast Lingering Souls and pass. he swings and I chump. This goes on for three or four turns over the course of 2 Lingering Souls. Finally he drops a Wolf Run and starts to get in. After dealing with Swagtusk, I drop a Jace successfully and begin to blast his library for 10. I am able to protect it and the game goes on. Over a course of attacks at me previously, I dropped to 3 life. Now we enter the endgame. We both have a stupid number of lands in play. I have 3 life with a Snapcaster and a few Syncopate in my hand. He has 6 cards left in his library while Jace is still in play and it is his turn. He has one attacker and a Wolf Run with a full grip of cards available. He attacks me and I only have one answer. I flash in Snapcaster (hoping to use the Devour Flesh in the grave yard). Before Snapcaster resolves, he responds with a {Searing Spear} I do not have the right countermagic in my hand to stop it, and Snapcaster is not able to pick a target yet. I ask him how many lands he has and he replies "More than enough to pay for Syncopate". I tap all but three lands and cast Syncopate on Snapcaster Mage. Both of us smile as we realize who had just won the long and hard match. We each reach across the table and shake each other's hands for a most well played match.
1-1
3) RG aggro
I was not worried about this matchup. My .library. is geared to destroy creature decks entirely, so this was really not on my concern list at all. Game one I just keep wrathing until I win. A Sphinx's revelation also puts me out of reach. Game two I cycle like no tomorrow and quickly lose because I could not find one of 6 wraths or 4 Revelations. Game 3 was similar to game two. I cycle and flashback 3 Think Twice, I cycled 1 Azorious Charm, and I Sphinx's Revelation for 5. Amongst all that digging I could not find anymore than one wrath or another revelation.
1-2
I left for home rather irritated. I did not feel well, and I should have won the final round against RG. Drawing only 2 Sphinx's Revelation over the course of 3 games is just not how this .library. was supposed to work. I suppose it was probably payback for making my sick body endure 4 hours of .sufficiently advanced technology. when I should have been at home resting. In any case I think some changes are in order. So to continue the troll fest of handing me hands with only 2 lands, my .library. also decided that in testing it was cool for me to always draw charm, but in an actual tournament setting it was almost nowhere to be found more often than not. So here are the revisions I plan on trying out.
-2 Syncopate
+1 Azorious Charm- After how hard I fought trying to advocate two, this card actually would have helped me some on Friday. In testing it was never an issue since I always had seemed to drawn it early and I never tend to cycle these first. I still have the same feelings towards this card and do not like it as a four of. Dudecore actually turned me on the idea of running three, so I am going to try that and see what results I get. I am starting to believe that 3 really is the right number for this card. 4 just seems like too much and 2 is only temperamental in consistency.
+1 Disspate- This is just so I have another hard counter. Most of the time when I cast Syncopate, Dissipate would have worked just fine as well. The format was not as fast at my metagame as I thought it would be. So switching over to another hard counter actually is best I think.
Other thoughts:
Lingering Souls was a champ all night. Somebody else at my shop tried to advocate the Angel, but after blocking Thragtusk for 3-4 turns straight and taking no damage in the process, I think I will stay with them. Thundermaw can blow you out, but I normally do not have these in high numbers in play.
@Potticus- 2 worked for me in testing, but the Magic gods decided they were going to hate me. I still think two is great if you see them, but I am going to try three. My build still leans towards permission by playing more counters than most other control decks, but I think three just may be the right number. Let me know how 2 works out for you. It worked for me the past 3 weeks up until now. Maybe I am just annoyed at losing a match to RG when I know my .library. is geared to beat it. If you or anybody else would like to post their Esper lists, go ahead. I like varying opinions. I also enjoy looking at other people's lists and discussing some of the unique choices they chose.
Is it only me, of does "mana" keep changing to .force. and "have" keep changing to .possess.?
I am not sure why, but my above post has an issue with the word .sufficiently advanced technology.. Apparently the .sufficiently advanced technology. gods do not want me discussing them either.
I guess .force. is taboo as well.
. . . This is really annoying.
I have the same problem.
Its a piotr april fools joke
Quote from: MisterJH on April 01, 2013, 02:15:40 PM
Its a piotr april fools joke
Really? In that case well done Piotr! I was so busy I did not even notice it was the first of the month. You have to get up early to fool me, congrats on being one of the few who did.
I am going to update and expand on this after my finals are done with this week. Look forward to the new article on the weekend or beginning of next week.
Realy want to play esper Control but I don't have any sphinx's revalation or snap, any ideas?
Quote from: Hunteroffire9 on May 11, 2013, 10:38:38 AM
Realy want to play esper Control but I don't have any sphinx's revalation or snap, any ideas?
Sadly, you are really out of luck. It may be possible to play a Token list or some kind of Tap Out control. But it would still not be cheap. I can compile a few lists if you are interested . . .
Yes please!
Quote from: Hunteroffire9 on May 11, 2013, 08:41:34 PM
Yes please!
I run an esper control deck, but while I have {Sphinx's Revelation} I don't use snaps. My suggestion is to try with {Elixir of Immortality}, mixed with draw gives you more options down the line, but is less consistent
Quote from: Death Gaara on March 28, 2013, 10:51:34 AM
Quote from: Potticus on March 28, 2013, 10:21:46 AM
I also disagree with charm. For so many reasons. All those creatures you listed with haste don't bother me. I play 2 blind obedience, if one is out and then say a hellrider comes down it comes in tapped. Next turn when it attacks I top deck it and charm obedience synergy has bought me 4 turns.
I also run 2 obzedat and only 3 sphinx's revelations. This has worked awesomely for me. Even more importantly if I have an extra azorius charm and I don't need it's other two modes I swing with obzedat and lifelink mode making Him give me 7 life this turn. I've also returned my attacking snap caster Mage with one to my hand then played him next turn targeting another card. The charm has more value than you credit it for. I honestly prefer it over think twice early game and late game.
I agree on resto angel I'm not a fan at all. I don't think she's the right card, but she does give a good answer to flying 2/2 or 3/3's.
I sense a common theme of people disagreeing with my choices on Charm. I specifically stated that I feel it works best in a "permission" style control deck. Feel free to share you list if you would like, but I cannot say how well two would work if I have nothing to go off of. I gave Charm plenty of credit. But with my permission styled list, I felt it was the weakest link and chose to cut those, Angels, and Ultimate Price. If you take care to notice, you will see that I do not run Blind Obedience. Nor do I run Obzedat. I am okay with people disagreeing with me, but if you are going to, then it needs to be on a reasonable ground. Those of you advocating for Charms as far as I know are not playing a more streamlined control list. It is leaning more towards the newer control decks. In my version of this deck, I feel 4 Charm is subpar. It does not generate enough advantage for me, nor does it deal with threats in a consistent manor, and the lifelink clause is useless in my deck since the strongest creature is Snapcaster. I am glad Charm has found a home in the new style control decks. But in an old style like mine which would rather just counter something, it is subpar. I tested this card for a long time because I wanted to play 4. Yet each time I saw it, it just ended up getting cycled into a land or some other spell I could not use.
EDIT: As far as Angel is concerned, why do people run her? I tried it and found it was too slow. Does anybody else have better results with this card? I still don't care for it, but would like to hear other opinions on it. People keep running it, so there must be something to it.
I'm actually with you on the charms, not the biggest fan of them, but I keep them SB with {rest in peace} for rites decks.
Quote from: Crapshooter on May 13, 2013, 02:16:05 AM
Quote from: Death Gaara on March 28, 2013, 10:51:34 AM
Quote from: Potticus on March 28, 2013, 10:21:46 AM
I also disagree with charm. For so many reasons. All those creatures you listed with haste don't bother me. I play 2 blind obedience, if one is out and then say a hellrider comes down it comes in tapped. Next turn when it attacks I top deck it and charm obedience synergy has bought me 4 turns.
I also run 2 obzedat and only 3 sphinx's revelations. This has worked awesomely for me. Even more importantly if I have an extra azorius charm and I don't need it's other two modes I swing with obzedat and lifelink mode making Him give me 7 life this turn. I've also returned my attacking snap caster Mage with one to my hand then played him next turn targeting another card. The charm has more value than you credit it for. I honestly prefer it over think twice early game and late game.
I agree on resto angel I'm not a fan at all. I don't think she's the right card, but she does give a good answer to flying 2/2 or 3/3's.
I sense a common theme of people disagreeing with my choices on Charm. I specifically stated that I feel it works best in a "permission" style control deck. Feel free to share you list if you would like, but I cannot say how well two would work if I have nothing to go off of. I gave Charm plenty of credit. But with my permission styled list, I felt it was the weakest link and chose to cut those, Angels, and Ultimate Price. If you take care to notice, you will see that I do not run Blind Obedience. Nor do I run Obzedat. I am okay with people disagreeing with me, but if you are going to, then it needs to be on a reasonable ground. Those of you advocating for Charms as far as I know are not playing a more streamlined control list. It is leaning more towards the newer control decks. In my version of this deck, I feel 4 Charm is subpar. It does not generate enough advantage for me, nor does it deal with threats in a consistent manor, and the lifelink clause is useless in my deck since the strongest creature is Snapcaster. I am glad Charm has found a home in the new style control decks. But in an old style like mine which would rather just counter something, it is subpar. I tested this card for a long time because I wanted to play 4. Yet each time I saw it, it just ended up getting cycled into a land or some other spell I could not use.
EDIT: As far as Angel is concerned, why do people run her? I tried it and found it was too slow. Does anybody else have better results with this card? I still don't care for it, but would like to hear other opinions on it. People keep running it, so there must be something to it.
I'm actually with you on the charms, not the biggest fan of them, but I keep them SB with {rest in peace} for rites decks.
Check out the updates in my next Article. It will be released later today. Thanks for reading,
DG
Quote from: Death Gaara on March 27, 2013, 01:01:33 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on March 27, 2013, 12:10:20 PM
I could try it. I don't like {Syncopate}, I prefer {Negate} or {Essence Scatter} personally. {Syncopate} is good for stopping early {Farseek} and such.
Not finding {W} early doesn't ruin the cards value as far as I'm concerned, the same could be said about any card in their deck, and I'm planning on playing long enough for it not to be an issue. {Thragtusk} also represents the only time that mode doesn't work profitably, the rest of the time it does, and does well. But what does really stop {Thragtusk} besides counter magic? You're going to 2 for 1 with him 90% of the time.
I disagree on the argument with Syncopate. Essence Scatter and Negate are too reliant on a given situation. As I stated previously, Syncopate is almost never dead and is a real powerhouse when you go first. I could think of a few other creatures that Azorius Charm is bad against. Allow me to list them.
{Swagtusk} (Just rolling in all that swag lol).
{Restoration Angel} (Give the opponent more value? Sure!)
{Hellrider} (It has haste, so it swings the turn it comes down anyways)
{Huntmaster of the Fells} (Because players need more value off of this guy right?)
Anything that has already used an undying ability (More value FTW)
{Flinthoof Boar} (Again, normally has haste so little point in just returning it)
{Burning Tree Shaman} (The opponent totally needs more free mana)
{Snapcaster Mage} (Hey it could happen lol)
You cannot reliably use the Drownyard plan either to mill these cards out. To begin with, you are trying to accumulate two cards to make something work. That in itself is already not consistent. A lot of these threats also come down before you have 6 mana (2 mana for charm, 3 mana for drownyard, and the drownyard itself). When these threats do come down, most of the time the damage is done. It was once said that using one card to make another card playable is a bad way to build your deck. Charm is an exception since it has different modes. But the principles remain the same. If somebody is trying to use Charm and then Drownyard, then I feel they are doing it wrong. I realize the color argument was a bit of a stretch, but this deck is more likely to get {W} or {B} screwed than it is {U} screwed. The wait it out argument just does not fly with me. Naya Blitz decks and other aggro powerhouses will not let you wait it out. They move quickly, and you must respond quickly and efficiently. I have no doubt in your ability to play control. Based on your previous posts that I have seen and the very posts in this thread, it is apparent you are a strong control player. However, this is just a version of control that fits my Draw Go permission play style. Charm is great. But it does not provide CA like Think Twice or Revelation and it does not answer threats as universally as a counterspell does in my opinion. I like it the least in the draw engine package. That is why I decided to cut it. Like I stated earlier, I agree to disagree. I originally tried 4 Charms in the first draft version of my list and it was often subpar. I firmly believe people should play what works for them. I have tried playing 4 and I now play 2. So I have been on both sides of this argument and know what works for me. I encourage you to try going to two if you like permission style control. If you find it does not work, then simply put them back in their original place. Until you try 4 Revelation, 4 Think Twice, and 2 Charm as a package in a permission Esper list (assuming you play a permission version of this deck), then you will never know which works better for you ;)
I know this thread is old and my comment will probably never be looked at, but I do have something to say...
For the record, this is less of an argument for {Azorius charm} than it is a question about your current opinion on it, DG. Because of latest rotation (Theros, obviously), many of the cards you mentioned are no longer legal. This forces me to further "positivify" (maybe that's a word😄) my reaction to the card when considered against a counter spell. Although I am disappointed by the lack of CA when using it for a draw, I feel that the rotation has heightened the value of its second mode (that being the attack/block bounce) because the powerful "enters the battlefield" abilities are less of a problem and this mode can be effectively used to tie up your opponent's options(that's a fancy way of saying stall). I know that you are far more knowledgable about the fine points of the game than I, this being a key one, so I hope my question is worth asking and does not sound like I'm an "out of the box" player.
What is your renewed opinion on {azorious charm} because of rotation? Has your opinion on the card changed for another reason? And for that matter, has it changed at all? Again, this is directed toward DG, but an answer to any one of my questions would be appreciated from any person, perspective, or opinion.
Interrogatively,
Austinist1